PAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone.
Glad to have you with us tonight.
We have a very different kind of story for you to
start off the evening, one that asks you to choose
sides. And it may cause controversy, even within
your own family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): He's a convicted sex offender.
JAMES AMBLER, CONVICTED SEX OFFENDER: Well, I broke
the law. I deserved what I got. But what I'm going
through now, I -- I don't deserve.
ZAHN: Will he offend again or did he just make one
horrible choice? It's a story that could make you
question what you always thought.
ZAHN: Murder on a hilltop -- a leading criminal
attorney makes a shocking discovery. Could his
wife's killer be someone they feared all along?
And, what if you could train your husband like you
train your dog? If it works on man's best friend,
why wouldn't it work on your man?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: I want to start tonight with a very
interesting and very controversial story, one that
has generated a lot of heated discussion in our
newsroom, one that may test what you think about
convicted child molesters.
The first thing that comes to mind is usually not
sympathy. In fact, many people believe that sex
offenders, especially those who prey on children
should be marked for life. And, in most states, they
are.
But the sex offender I'm going to introduce you to
may be different. If it possible that you could even
feel sorry for him?
Here's Alina Cho with a story you will only see here
on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT
(voice-over): In almost every respect, James Ambler
is a regular guy. He enjoys the outdoors, has a home
on the water and owns a business. He's also the
proud father of a teenage girl. But Ambler is not a
regular guy.
It all began 12 years ago. Ambler got involved in
what he calls a loving relationship, one that lasted
for more than a year. He still remembers how they
met, how he was washing his boat when she approached
him.
AMBLER: Introduced herself and kind of, you know,
flirtatious, just saying hi. And, you know, she was
beautiful. And, then, a day later, she came by again
and, you know, made a remark about, oh, you're
single, and, you know, would you like to go out
sometime? And I said, sure. And age was never
mentioned, you know, at first.
CHO: At first. At first, their relationship was
picture perfect.
AMBLER: It was just like any one you would have or
anybody. I mean, we -- I have pictures of us when we
went to the fair, went to the park. She went to my
family, ate dinner once with my dad, met my dad, my
sisters, my brothers.
CHO (on camera): And what did your family think?
AMBLER: Well, they loved her, same as me. I mean, no
one thought anything of any -- you know, oh, she's
too young.
CHO (voice-over): She was. After a few months of
dating, he asked her how old she was. She told him
15. Ambler was 31.
By then, it was too late. Both admit they were in
love.
(on camera): So, then, when she told you she was 15,
what did you think? What was your first thought?
AMBLER: I was shocked. I mean, she didn't seem to be
15. And -- and, then, like the -- the old saying,
you do stupid things when you're in love.
CHO (voice-over): Even though he knew she was
underage, the two continued to see each other for
months. But when the girl's father found out what
was going on, he turned Ambler in. And, in 1993, he
was convicted of lewd and lascivious acts on a
minor. He was sentenced and served three years in
prison.
AMBLER: I did wrong. You know, I broke the law. I
deserved what I got. But what I'm going through now,
I -- I don't deserve. You know, I'm -- I'm -- I'm
living a nightmare that -- that's not going to go
away. It's -- there's no way out of it.
CHO: For one crime, one offense, Ambler feels he's
serving a life sentence. More than a decade after
his conviction, his mug shot still appears on
Florida's Web site for sex offenders, a warning for
residents thinking about moving nearby, along with
his picture, his name and address and his offense,
but no details about the case, except to say, his
victim is female. Ambler says that's an open
invitation for people to think and fear the worst.
AMBLER: I would feel the same way. I -- I would --
my first reaction was, he's a horrible person.
CHO: He's also subject to surprise visits from the
sheriff's office four times a year and must register
his address with the county twice a year. Those are
new requirements, provisions of the Jessica Lunsford
Act, named for the 9-year-old Florida girl raped and
murdered this year by a known sex offender.
AMBLER: I pray -- I pray in my bed that no one hurts
any kids or anything happens, because, every time
that that does happen, my life changes. My life gets
worse. There's bad people out there. And I -- I
realize that. But I'm not one of them.
CHARLIE CRIST, FLORIDA ATTORNEY GENERAL: This is a
special kind of crime. When you commit a crime
against a child of a sexual nature, Florida has
decided that we're going to treat you differently.
CHO: Florida's attorney general, Charlie Crist, says
Ambler could have avoided all of this by not
committing the crime. And, he says, there are no
gray areas in the law.
CRIST: The law's pretty clear. And when something
like this occurs, people are treated equally across
the board. And this man was convicted.
AMBLER: If any of these senators or any of these
people that make these laws could be in my shoes for
a month and be me, being the person that I am and
what I have accomplished and -- and the heart that I
have now, and -- the laws would be changed, without
a doubt.
CHO: Ambler wants his mug shot taken off the Web
site, or, at the very least, he wants his file to
include a description of his case, to differentiate
him from the so-called bad guys.
The state attorney general's office says, Ambler can
petition to be taken off, but not until 2018. By
then, he'll be 57.
(on camera): What is the best way to characterize
how you're feeling and what you're going through? Is
it fear?
AMBLER: It's just a pain that's indescribable. I
mean, to -- I mean, since you were a little -- a
child, when you're born, you spill the milk on the
table. You're scolded for that, and, then, it goes
away. You're -- you -- you -- you don't bring it up
for the rest of your entire life.
CHO (voice-over): Ambler says he still thinks about
the relationship that started all of this and may
even still love her.
AMBLER: Oh, yes. I mean, there's days I thought that
I wished she was still there and she was going
through this with me now. It would have made things
better. It would have made things easier. CHO: The
victim, who declined to speak to us on camera, is
now married with two children and one on the way.
Through her husband, she told us her relationship
with Ambler was consensual and that he shouldn't
continue to be punished for it.
Ambler is thinking about making some changes
himself. He's thinking seriously about selling
everything and leaving the country.
AMBLER: I could be free. I mean, I could wake up in
the morning and -- and I could be the way I want
with -- with kids. I could -- I could date a girl
and not worry if somebody's going to show up or if
she's going to look on the Internet and see my
picture.
This was my dream property that you're sitting on
now. This was my home that I had peace, that I could
come home to and -- and enjoy my life. And I can't
do that anymore.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And that was Alina Cho, reporting from Pasco
County, Florida.
Now to the legal aspects of this case.
Joining me is Jack Furlong, a defense attorney who
specializes in cases involving sex crimes, and Wendy
Murphy, who is a former prosecutor now with the New
England Law School.
Good to see both of you.
So, Jack, here you have James Ambler, convicted for
sleeping with someone half his age, 30 years old, to
her 15 years old. So, why shouldn't the public be
aware of that?
JACK FURLONG, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it's a crime.
It was a crime that was committed before public
registration acts became effective in '94 and '95,
basically became a nationwide proposition. And all
he's saying, in his own way, is, one, I'm being
branded, and I'm branded for life. And, two, don't I
have the opportunity, under our constitutionally
ordered liberty, to say, yes, I committed a crime; I
pleaded guilty to that crime; I served a sentence
for that crime, and now I would like to get beyond
that?
Or has redemption been canceled as a social value,
which is, effectively, what the attorney general of
Florida is saying?
ZAHN: What about that, Wendy? Should there be
redemption for this man, who has committed his
crime? He served his time. And even his victim has
now said that this was a consensual relationship?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I'm glad he's
accepting responsibility. That's always a good
thing. But he did compare his crime to spilling milk
as a child. And that kind of worries me.
Look, the criminal justice system is not the sole
arbiter of truth. It is not the sole arbiter of what
it means to suffer in society when you do dastardly
things to people. And we call those things crimes.
Crime is, by definition, a public event. It's why we
pay for the prosecution with public dollars and it
happens in a public courtroom.
And, if we could all fit in the courtroom, we could
all watch the prosecution. And we would know who he
is, whether he likes it or not.
ZAHN: All right. But, Wendy...
MURPHY: That's the nature of what crime is.
ZAHN: Do you think this man is as dangerous as a
30-year-old who preys on an 8-year-old?
MURPHY: I'm not sure all sex offenders can or should
be labeled the same.
I think I would agree with Jack that we do know who
the super- dangerous are, compared to the
not-so-dangerous. But, look, I really don't care
that he thinks he should be able to soft-pedal his
crime, because, if he lived across the street from
me -- I have got five kids -- I wouldn't be sending
any of them over for milk or cookies. And that's my
right as a citizen in a collective society, where I
have to obey the laws and I have the right to expect
it from other people. He can have a blank slate all
he wants from the criminal justice system. That
doesn't mean I have to like the guy.
ZAHN: What about that, Jack?
(LAUGHTER)
FURLONG: Look, I -- I know Wendy's positions and I
know how many children she has. And they're all
beautiful kids.
But there is a world of difference. And here's the
problem with the way we treat sex offenders. We
treat them monolithically. There is no distinction,
whether you're a juvenile, whether you're having a
-- an allegedly or quasi-consensual relationship.
The system makes no discrimination. And -- and
that's really a shame in and of itself, because guys
like this really have demonstrated to parole
authorities, to the penal system, that they're
capable of being rehabilitated and, indeed, this his
error in judgment is not something that has been
revisited in the now 12 years since his crime was
first committed.
ZAHN: All right, Jack, but you have got someone like
Wendy, who has five kids live in her house. And
she's saying...
FURLONG: And she's paranoid.
(LAUGHTER)
ZAHN: ... I don't care if that number is 4 percent
or 5 percent of these guys getting into trouble once
again. I don't want to take that chance.
FURLONG: Look, you can't run from your record. Your
record is, in fact, a public document.
But why we're singling guys like this out, I'm not
quite sure. If I'm a -- a owner of a wood-framed
house, I'd like to know if a compulsive arsonist is
living next door to me, but I don't get the same
access to that information.
Why this guy should be branded in some fashion, the
same as, let's say, someone who molests an
8-year-old is really unclear to me. And, indeed, the
research would suggest that this guy is very
unlikely to commit a new crime, in spite of all the
data on other types of sex offenders to the
contrary. He's just not an obsessive-compulsive guy.
He's a guy who, you know, committed a crime
involving a minor, but not a crime involving a
child. There is a difference.
ZAHN: But, is there...
MURPHY: But...
ZAHN: ... a difference, Wendy?
MURPHY: Well -- well, for sure. Look, the remedy for
this guy is to be open about what he did, to speak
to his neighbors, to educate the public about how
he's not the dangerous type.
That's the kind of guy I'm going to feel a lot more
comfortable with, than having a system that pretends
the thing never happened. I mean, that's what makes
parents nervous, is not knowing. I'm far more
comfortable saying to a guy like this, oh, you know,
I feel OK around you. I still might -- may not send
my kids over, but I feel OK around you...
ZAHN: All right.
MURPHY: ... as a parent, as compared to somebody
else.
ZAHN: Wendy, in closing, though, let's come back to
the point I made earlier, that the victim herself
says this was a consensual relationship and this guy
is being treated unfairly. He's already paid the
price for what he did.
MURPHY: Look, he did pay the price, in terms of the
criminal justice system. That doesn't mean he paid
the price in the rest of society. And -- and we are
allowed to judge him harshly.
The fact that the victim had a crush on him or
wasn't mature enough to understand the nature of the
assault or the abuse, that's why we protect kids.
That's why we say there's a black-and-white age-
based line. And that's why he, as a 31-year-old,
knew the law and should have known better than to
touch someone, when he didn't know for sure how old
she was. Buyer beware. It's his fault. He owns it.
I don't care what the child thought. Kids -- you
know, kids make these kinds of decision in
teacher/student abuse cases all the time.
ZAHN: Sure.
MURPHY: We read about them all the time. We don't
give teachers a pass...
ZAHN: Right.
MURPHY: ... because the kid had a crush on an adult.
ZAHN: All right.
MURPHY: We understand, that's a problem for kids.
ZAHN: But this woman is now talking to us through
her husband. She's an adult, a mother of two, with a
third child on her way.
And we will let our audience decide how they feel
about Mr. Ambler's future.
Jack Furlong, Wendy Murphy, thank you for both of
your perspectives.
FURLONG: Thank you, Paula.
MURPHY: Thank you.
ZAHN: When we come back, a familiar face on TV
defending high- profile clients -- now the story is
about him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL CARDOZA, LEGAL ANALYST: You just had to hear
him talk. I -- I mean, it was tragic. I could hardly
understand what he was saying because he was sobbing
so deeply.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: So, why was he crying? Because his wife has
been murdered? And the case raises an awful lot of
questions tonight.
And a little bit later on, police investigate the
case of a pregnant woman attacked and her baby cut
from her womb, a crime in the headlines this week.
Yet, it happens more often than you might think.
Stay with us for more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Right now, we want to bring you the latest on
a big story that developed over the weekend. And
it's even changed over the last couple of hours. It
involves the wife of a prominent defense attorney,
Daniel Horowitz, who is often seen here as a guest
on CNN.
His wife, Pamela Vitale, was found murdered on
Saturday at the couple's Northern California estate.
Just a couple of hours ago, local authorities
declared her beating death a wide-open case.
With more on this developing story, let's go
straight to Ted Rowlands in Martinez, California.
Did we learn anything else new from that news
conference?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we learned
that they have a long way to go, Paula.
They say they want to talk to more suspects, dozens
of them. They have talked to Daniel Horowitz. They
have talked to some people. They're awaiting
physical evidence as well. But, as you mentioned,
they say this case is completely open.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROWLANDS (voice-over): Daniel Horowitz said nothing
when he returned home yesterday, a day after calling
911 to report his wife, Pamela, had been murdered.
Investigators spent the day at the couple's massive
Northern California estate. And, this afternoon,
they met with reporters.
JIMMY LEE, SPOKESMAN, CONTRA COSTA COUNTY SHERIFF'S
DEPARTMENT: The cause of death is listed as
blunt-force trauma to the head.
ROWLANDS: The couple lived in a trailer while they
oversaw the construction of a new home.
Investigators say they have interviewed Daniel
Horowitz, and he has been cooperative.
They also interviewed 52-year-old Joseph Lynch, a
man who lives on Horowitz's estate and a man whom
Horowitz sought a restraining order against in June
of this year. Horowitz ended up dropping his
request, telling CNN, he worried it would make
matters worse.
Horowitz is a television legal analyst who is also
the lead attorney for Susan Polk, a mother of three
who is accused of killing her husband, Felix, a
prominent San Francisco Bay Area psychologist.
Today, a judge declared a mistrial in the Polk case
to give Horowitz a chance to grieve.
Michael Cardoza, a friend and fellow television
lawyer, talked to Horowitz this morning.
CARDOZA: You just had to hear him talk. I -- I mean,
it was tragic. I could hardly understand what he was
saying because he was sobbing so deeply.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROWLANDS: Now, investigators tonight say that Joseph
Lynch has been very cooperative with them. We called
Joseph Lynch today. I talked to him this afternoon.
And he says the idea that he had anything to do with
this murder is -- quote -- "ridiculous" -- Paula.
ZAHN: But there is a lot of talk, Ted, no matter
what anybody tells us, that not only is Mr. Lynch a
potential suspect. So is Mr. Horowitz, as is often
the case in any murder. Don't they immediately look
at -- at the husband as a -- a potential suspect?
ROWLANDS: Oh, clearly.
And, in this case, investigators say they have sat
down with Horowitz. And, again, just like Mr. Lynch,
they're calling him -- quote -- "very cooperative."
ZAHN: So, what does this mean for the trial of Susan
Polk, that Mr. Horowitz was intimately involved
with?
ROWLANDS: They were about a week into this trial.
Horowitz is representing Susan Polk.
Today, the judge declared a mistrial, sent the jury
home. They're going to start it again December 2.
They're going to charge it and start from scratch,
basically. And, Horowitz, according to his
co-counsel, will be involved in that trial when it
resumes with a new jury.
ZAHN: Ted Rowlands, thanks so much for the update.
And there is still a lot more ahead tonight,
including the controversy over this sign. Does the
phrase "God bless America" offend you? There's the
sign. Check it out.
First, though, we're going to check out some of the
other top stories with Christi Paul at Headline
News.
Hi, Christi Paul.
CHRISTI PAUL, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hi,
Paula.
A lawyer for former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay
says he was indicted only after he refused a plea
bargain offered by a Texas district attorney. DeLay,
who says he's done nothing wrong, has been indicted
twice in Texas for allegedly funneling corporate
funds to Republican candidates -- that, of course,
forbidden under Texas law.
In Taunton, Massachusetts, tonight, hundreds of
residents have been evacuated, after warnings that a
dam is close to bursting. Last week's heavy rains
have put additional stress on that dam. And
officials say the railing is already dipping. Some
of the pilings are about to give way. The National
Weather Service issued flash flood advisories for
that region.
Remember this tragedy on a Texas highway? A bus
carrying elderly evacuees fleeing Hurricane Rita
burst into flames. Well, today, investigators said,
they want the driver charged with the negligent
deaths of 23 of the passengers because they were
under his care. The driver is already under arrest
for immigration violations.
And President Bush says he's pleased by Saturday's
vote on the Iraqi constitution, even though there
are reports that most Sunni Arab Iraqis voted
against it. The president says, the vote itself is a
positive development.
Those are the headlines -- Paula, back to you.
ZAHN: Thanks, Christi. See you a little bit later
on.
Still ahead, bird flu found in yet another country
and a new warning that the U.S. isn't ready to stop
an outbreak where it might land first, at our
airports.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anyone is sick, has got a
cough, sweaty, something like that, they might want
to pull them aside and then see if there's some kind
of symptoms.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: How the threat of bird flu here at home is
already changing life for you if you fly.
Also, the new storm threat in the Caribbean. Could
the Gulf Coast be hit again?
We will have the very latest for you when we come
back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Check this out. This is for real, the full
moon high above a clear New York City tonight -- a
stark contrast to what's going on in the Caribbean,
where Tropical Storm Wilma is getting stronger and
stronger and stronger. Its winds are about 50 miles
per hour right now.
And the question on everyone's minds has to be, is
the Gulf Coast in for another nightmare, and
Florida, for that matter, too?
Let's check in with meteorologist Jacqui Jeras, who
joins us now.
Hi, Jacqui.
JACQUI JERAS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hi, Paula.
Well, it's a real possibility. It may be making
landfall somewhere in the eastern Gulf about a week
from now, give or take a little bit. But there's
still a fair amount of uncertainty, A, since we have
so much time, and, B, because, right now, the
steering mechanisms are so very weak and very light.
In fact, Wilma has basically not moved throughout
much of the day today. It's been very stationary.
And the intensity has been holding steady for about
a good six hours. Winds are at 50 miles per hour
right now, but should gradually strengthen. What we
are expecting to happen is that, later on tonight,
it should start drifting a little bit more to the
west and then, eventually, making its way farther up
to the north -- water temperatures a little bit
warmer in this area -- and real deep, also, so a
deep pool of warm water. That could bring it to
major hurricane status by Thursday, then starting to
curve back around and bringing it towards the
eastern Gulf Coast. And, keep in mind, look at how
large this cone of uncertainty is. So, we still
don't know exactly where in Florida it could go --
right now, high pressure blocking this system. And
that is why it is just drifting and not moving. But,
that high will fade. And we will see winds move in
from the west. And that's what could steer Wilma
towards Florida -- Paula.
ZAHN: Sorry to hear that.
Jacqui Jeras, thanks for the update, though, anyway.
Tonight, another frightening report about a brand
new case of avian flu, this time, in a dead turkey
found on a Greek island. Experts are now testing it
to see if it carries the deadly strain of the virus
that has already killed dozens of people, mostly in
Asia.
Now, we do need to remember that no human cases have
yet been reported in Europe. But, just last week, we
learned that the virus has shown up in Rumania and
in Turkey. And, today, U.S. Health Secretary Mike
Leavitt again warned that no nation was ready to
deal with bird flu.
Officials here at home have been trying to get ready
for the worst, a pandemic that could kill tens of
millions. Among the first lines of defense are
America's international airports.
Here is Brian Todd with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): San
Francisco International Airport, a major hub for
passengers arriving from Asia. Now, in addition to
security checks, screeners have another danger to
look out for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If anyone is sick, has got a
cough, sweaty, something like that, they might want
to pull them aside and then see if there's some kind
of symptoms.
TODD: Symptoms of avian flu, the disease with no
proven vaccine that has killed at least 60 people in
Asia.
Human cases are now confined to four Asian
countries. And avian flu has, so far, not proven to
spread very easily between people. But top health
officials are very worried that the disease could
mutate into a more easily spreadable form and travel
around the globe as quickly as a flight from Asia to
San Francisco.
At San Francisco International and other U.S.
airports, new quarantine stations have been set up
to identify and isolate potential avian flu victims.
Officials at the Centers for Disease Control tell
CNN, they have quarantine stations at 11
international airports in the United States, with
six more in development.
But, even at some stations identified as being up
and running, like Washington's Dulles Airport, there
are staff in place, but physical facilities have
been not been fully developed yet. And these
stations are really just examination rooms, where
people are processed quickly and then either sent to
the hospital or sent on their way.
The head of the American Public Health Association,
who's taking part in a study on these quarantine
efforts, says their effectiveness is very limited.
DR. GEORGES BENJAMIN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN
PUBLIC HEALTH ASSOCIATION: The system that we have
right now does not adequately protect the American
people. Stand in a causeway as people depart the
airplane, and look and see if anybody's sick. And,
obviously, unless somebody is very ill, you're not
going to pick up any kind of disease.
TODD: Dr. Georges Benjamin says, most avian flu
victims who might spread the virus don't show any
obvious symptoms at first and may be long gone from
the airport by the time those symptoms show up.
But CDC officials say, these stations are simply one
part of a public health safety net designed to
combat the spread of avian flu. They say, these
stations cannot do the entire job by themselves. But
the CDC says, all these facilities already have
doctors in place, and they'll continue to be
upgraded with more staff.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: That was Brian Todd with that update.
And, coming up, a story that is so shattering, I
think it's going to be impossible for any of you to
try to understand. I know it is for all of us here.
What would drive a woman to cut out a baby from
another woman's womb?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She seemed really out of it. I
mean, she just spaced out, like she's hollow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZAHN: A disturbing crime that happens more often
than you might think.
And still ahead, 22 million tons of trash, a
mountain-sized challenge before New Orleans can even
think about rebuilding. And don't even ask about the
smell.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Tonight everyone is still talking about a
grisly crime that defies the imagination. It
happened last Thursday. A teenager was riding his
bike through the Pennsylvania woods when he came
across a woman who had just sliced an unborn baby
from the womb of another woman, her neighbor.
Investigators are still trying to piece together
exactly what happened, but we do know the suspect
will have her first court appearance tomorrow.
Here's Deborah Feyerick with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It
began like any other day, Valerie Oskin and her
friend Peggy Jo Conner, both pregnant, both
scheduled to deliver within weeks of each other, or
at least that's what Valerie Oskin thought.
Police say the two women were in Oskin's trailer
home when a baseball bat came from behind striking
Oskin on the back of the head. Her attacker?
SCOTT ANDREASSI, ARMSTRONG COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY:
She has identified Peggy Jo Conner as her attacker.
FEYERICK: Peggy Jo Conner, a mother of three, now
charged with driving her next door neighbor to the
woods, cutting her open, then waiting for her to die
so she could steal the unborn child.
ANDREASSI: She have been beaten severely and was
bleeding profusely.
FEYERICK: Valerie Oskin is one of the lucky ones. In
the last two decades, experts say they know of eight
cases nationwide in which babies were ripped from
their mother's womb. Only one of those women
survived.
Bobby Jo Stinnett was not one of them. The
23-year-old dog breeder was murdered last year. The
alleged killer also claimed to be pregnant, just
like Peggy Jo Conner. District attorney Scott
Andreassi is prosecuting the Conner case.
ANDREASSI: The pregnancy test was taken on the day
of her arrest. She was transported to our local
hospital. That test indicates negative for
pregnancy.
FEYERICK: Yet like others accused of this crime,
police say Conner convinced even those closest to
her that she was having a baby.
THOMAS WILKS, FRIEND: I would put my hands on her
stomach and it would move and then the baby would
kick. I would lay my head on her stomach and my head
would move, where the baby would kick.
FEYERICK: Thomas Wilks says he doesn't think Conner,
a licensed nursing assistant is capable of doing
what police is accusing her of. The witness who
stumbled on the two women in the woods and who is
now credited with saving Valerie Oskin says Conner
was quiet.
ADAM SILVIS, RESCUED PREGNANT WOMAN: She seemed
really out of it. She just spaced out like she is
hollow. She barely said a word. She acted kind of
weird. I mean, she should have known that I noticed
what was going on in, but she smiled and waved to me
as I was leaving. It was just a very strange deal.
FEYERICK: Experts say abductors often fit a pattern.
For example, they may want to give their partner a
baby. They may have miscarried or are incapable of
having a child. And they usually live in the same
community as their victim. Conners' court appointed
lawyer has not yet returned our calls, but Thomas
Wilks tells CNN Connor is no monster.
WILKS: Love to help people. She'd help anybody. It
didn't matter who it was she'd help them.
FEYERICK: As for Valerie Oskin she delivered her
baby boy by caesarean. An official says the baby is
doing great. And his mom is improving every day,
though at the same time, every day she remembers a
little bit more about the attack that almost killed
her.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And that was Deborah Feyerick. Her report
mentioned some of the possible motivations for such
a heinous crime. Joining me to talk more about that,
forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Wellner. Good to
see you again.
DR. MICHAEL WELLNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Good to
see you.
ZAHN: The suspect in this case has three children of
her own. So clearly, up until this point fertility
had not been an issue. What would have made her do
what she did?
WELLNER: The common thread with the cases that have
been identified, studied from North America is a
woman desperate to demonstrate that she can bear
children, bear children by a particular significant
other, maybe in the home, maybe separated. But that
is the driving force.
What doesn't separate this from other crimes is that
there are plenty of people who get themselves
involved in homicide, who would never otherwise be
violent but there's something they would kill for.
We don't find so it unusual in our culture when
that's money, when that's romance. There's a very
small subset of people who would never kill or be
violent for any other reason, but they're desperate
-- those people are desperate enough on that issue
that they would kill.
ZAHN: And on a particular day.
WELLNER: Well, that particular day is a matter of
opportunity. This is a victim. Victims are always
victims of opportunity. Someone who is pregnant,
who's pregnant in the same time line as the person
who is faking a pregnancy. And it's a matter of
getting that person alone. She may have felt that
she needed to do it with immediacy and the only way
she could do it was to do it quietly in her own
home, because she was unable to lure her out of her
home.
That report you just had about Stinnett, she was
engaged in her home but usually what happens is the
victim is lured to a secluded place and the attack
happens there. Here she was attacked and then taken
to a secluded place, where the baby could -- or the
newborn could potentially be kidnapped.
ZAHN: Typically, how much premeditation has to be
involved if this is what you say it is, a crime of
opportunity.
WELLNER: Well, you've got to have a victim who
trusts an assailant enough to let her close. And it
can be a neighbor or it can be a close acquaintance
or it could be someone who you're corresponding to
sell something online or over the Internet.
So it has to be someone who's socially -- I'm
talking about a perpetrator -- has to be socially
capable enough to win the trust and confidence of a
pregnant woman who is protecting her baby who never
the less allows her close enough.
ZAHN: OK. Socially capable in one column.
WELLNER: Someone who is not scary. Someone ho is so
scary would never be able to get that close to a
pregnant woman who is protecting her unborn child.
ZAHN: Very quickly in closing, though, do most of
these women have mental problems who have been
accused and convicted of these crimes?
WELLNER: Well, they have mental problems that they
can't tolerate the possibility of losing someone
they love and they tie the idea of holding on to
that significant other with bearing a child.
ZAHN: So perverted. Doctor Mike Wellner, thank you.
WELLNER: It's sad. It's pathetic.
ZAHN: It is sad, very sad. Thank you for your
perspective as always.
We are going to move on next to the city of New
Orleans and the job that is just beginning. Can you
imagine hauling off 22 million tons of garbage? How
long can a whole city hold its nose collectively?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Try to imagine this -- and thank goodness this
is not "smellavision" -- the stench of trash that
can fill 3 1/2 million truckloads, more garbage than
any American city produces in a whole year.
Well, it's been lying around on the streets of New
Orleans for weeks now, rotting in the sun and, I'm
sure, developing a bacterial life all of its own.
Here's Ed Lavandera with more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pick one up and then go on to the
next one.
LAVANDERA (voice over): There's one part of Don
Bisbee's job that doesn't sit well with him: the
smell. DON BISBEE, ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS: It will
literally almost make you vomit on the spot.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Bisbee is from Seattle. He's
in New Orleans on a month-long mission to help clean
the city streets. For two days, he's managed a team
whose job is to clear out refrigerators and other
appliances tossed to the curb.
BISBEE: This is our bobcat down there.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Bisbee's biggest
responsibility is to make sure what's in the
refrigerators stays in. But, occasionally, putrid
juice spills out like the little trail that came
from the bottom of this refrigerator as it was being
hoisted into a truck.
LAVANDERA: And, of course, the worse part is when
you pick them up and the heavy equipment either
cracks the door or things start leaking.
BISBEE: That's why we've been shrink wrapping it. We
found that works pretty good.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Cranes move the appliances
like little sugar cubes being dropped into a cup of
coffee. From here, they end up at a refrigerator
graveyard.
STEVE WILHELMS, ENGINEER: This is it, the Gentilly
landfill.
LAVANDERA: There are 12 acres of space reserved for
appliances, a massive collection that engineer Steve
Wilhelms can't bear to spend much time around.
WILHELMS: I don't know that I've ever smelled
anything quite like this. I'm not sure it's a
describable smell. You'd have to experience before
you'd know what it is. It doesn't smell like
chicken.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Rotten food and harmful
gases like freon have to be removed from this
debris. It's then disinfected and crushed into bails
of metal for recycling. Experts say getting this
garbage off the streets is an urgent priority.
LAVANDERA: The longer these things sit out on the
streets...
WILHELMS: ... the greater the risk is -- the higher
potential is to have problems, health hazards as a
consequence.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Appliances aren't the only
hazard. Special crews also have to deal with
removing materials like bleach, oil and gasoline,
which brings us to one of the most glaring problems
you see in every neighborhood.
The Army Corps of Engineers estimates there are
probably 100,000 cars in the New Orleans area that
need to be disposed of. Right now, there are city
crews going out and towing away about 100 cars a
day. Unfortunately, at that rate, this monumental
task would take three years to finish.
So, officials are working on way to get abandoned
vehicles off the streets faster. But that's only a
fraction of the work. Twenty- two million tons of
debris needs to be cleaned out of the city. And Don
Bisbee knows it's up to him to keep the dump trucks
moving.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Tough job. Ed Lavandera reporting for us in
New Orleans tonight.
Still ahead, outrage on all sides.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE BELLONE, TOWN SUPERVISOR, BABYLON, NEW YORK:
Frankly, some people are going to be offended by the
things that government does sometimes and, you know,
sometimes you just have to say, too bad. You have to
get over that.
ZAHN: So let me ask you this: Would a sign that says
"God bless America" offend you?
What if it hung from your town hall?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Hi. Welcome back. "God bless America" seems
like an innocent, patriotic phrase, so why is it
sparking such anger in one community on New York's
Long Island? Jason Carroll found out for us.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Since the U.S.
went to war in Iraq, signs saying "God bless
America" have sprung up at demonstrations, stadiums
and even store fronts around the country in support
of U.S. troops. So when people took offense to a
"God Bless America" banner, hung on a town hall in
Babylon, New York, the town supervisor couldn't
understand why the big deal.
STEVE BELLONE, TOWN SUPERVISOR, BABYLON, NEW YORK:
Frankly, some people are going to be offended by the
things that government does sometimes and, you know,
sometimes you just have to say, too bad, you have to
get over that.
CARROLL: That supervisor, Steve Bellone's message to
two groups who focus on the constitutional issue of
separation of church and state, the Freedom from
Religion Foundation and the Center for Inquiry wrote
letters objecting to two town hall banners that
refer to God, saying the signs violate the first
amendment and alienate nonbelievers.
GERRY DANTONE, CENTER FOR INQUIRY: The constitution
says that the government should be neutral towards
religion and even in irreligion. It should not take
a position for religion or against it. And so, it
just should stick its nose out of such business.
CARROLL: What about their argument that it doesn't
belong on government property?
BELLONE: Well, we disagree. We think that the
constitution does permit us to express our religious
heritage and to, where appropriate, have phrases and
words that have God in it.
CARROLL (voice over): Opponents point to examples of
courts forcing the removal of religious symbols from
government buildings, like the highly publicized
proceeding in 2003, when a federal judge ordered a
ten commandments monument moved from Montgomery,
Alabama's state Supreme Court building.
ANNE LAURIE GAYLOR, FREEDOM FROM RELIGION: If you
have can have a permanent sign up on government
property, saying there is a God and God blesses
America and God blesses a particular war, well, what
can you stop the government from doing next time?
CARROLL: But, here in Babylon, a town where Sunrise
Highway is also called P.O.W./M.I.A. Memorial
Highway those we talked to...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Without God, what are we?
CARROLL: ...didn't see any problem with it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I think that's what the
country is all about. Everybody has a right to their
opinion.
BELLONE: This one's from Sierra Madre, California.
CARROLL: Bellone says he has received e-mails of
support from around the country.
BELLONE: Here's one from Mitchell, South Dakota.
Dear Supervisor Bellone, you rock, my friend.
CARROLL: But the Freedom from Religion Foundation
says, they've received e-mails like this, "...you
can all go to hell since you don't believe in God I
suggest you move to a Satan loving country."
And this, "I think it's disgusting what you people
do and it makes me want to vomit."
GAYLOR: Why does it bring out such ugliness in
people? Whenever government gets behind God, that's
what happens.
CARROLL: The groups that oppose the banners say they
are not seeking legal action yet. Instead, they want
a compromise. In letters they recommend signs
saying, united we stand.
But, Bellone plans to keep his banner as it is.
BELLONE: We're not going to bough to the pressure of
organizations that have a mission to eliminate God
from our public life.
CARROLL: So for now, the standoff continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Probably continue for some time based on what
we've just seen. That was Jason Carroll reporting
for us tonight.
Still ahead, are the men in your life behaving
badly? So, why not take a page out of the dog
handling handbook and get them into line?
First, though, at nine minutes before the hour, time
for a "Headline News Business Break" with Christi
Paul -- Christi.
PAUL: Thanks, Paula. The DOW industrials gained
about 60 points today helped by general Motors and
the United Auto Workers Agreement on a plan to cut
18 billion in GM health care costs. Union members
still have to approve that plan.
The chairman and CEO of bankrupt Delphi Auto Parts
says he will work for $1 year starting in January.
Delphi has been criticized for giving managers big
bonuses while asking workers to take severe pay
cuts.
Big tobacco got a breather from the supreme court
today. The justices refused to intervene in an
attempt to fine the companies $280 billion at a
trial accusing them of lying about the danger of
tobacco, it's still under way.
Chiron Corporation says it expects to produce less
of it's flu vaccine this year than it did last
because of production delays at one of its plant.
The company says that's also expected to effect its
bottom line.
And the government says businesses have defaulted on
roughly 20 percent of the loans given to them after
the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington. Some of
the loans have been questioned by critics including
an Atlanta area hotel, a boat dealer in Florida, and
a computer store in Lovett (ph), Texas.
And those are the business headlines. Back to you,
Paula.
ZAHN: Thanks Christi, appreciate it.
Time now to check in with "Larry King Live" who gets
under way in about seven minutes from now, I think.
Hey, Larry, I can't see you but, oh, there you are.
How are you tonight?
LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: How are you? I see you,
darling. You look great as always.
ZAHN: Thank you. Who do you have on tonight?
KING: When do you not look great? We've got a
trifecta. We've got an eclectic trifecta, Colin
Powell, Sharon Stone, and Robert Downey Jr. Hey, who
loves you? It won't be dull.
ZAHN: All right. So, will they all be in the green
room at the same time? KING: No, Colin left, Sharon
is there now and Robert is on the way.
ZAHN: All right. Because that could have been an
interesting thing to watch.
KING: Could be.
ZAHN: Put a camera in that green room sometimes so
we can see the pregame show, Larry.
KING: I'll see you in New York next week.
ZAHN: Thank you. See you when you come to town. And
we'll be looking for your trifecta a little bit
later on this evening. Thanks.
When we come back, something new to get a handle on
the man in your life. Try training him just like a
puppy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ZAHN: Just based on the number of women I've talked
to over the years I think just about every one of us
have wondered from time to time how you get your
husband or boyfriend to get off his back side and do
something.
Well, Jeanne Moos has found a reality TV show that
may have the answer for you.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MOOS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Does your man burp
like a bulldog? Is he always poking his nose where
it doesn't belong? Do you and your husband end up at
each other's throats?
ANNIE CLAYTON, BRING YOUR HUSBAND TO HEEL: Let's go
husband training.
MOOS: Bring Your Husband to Heel is one of the those
British reality shows that got good ratings even if
drawing analogies between men and dogs is anything
but politically correct.
CLAYTON: Don't mind a good old scratch in public.
MOOS: Every episode canine behaviorist Annie Clayton
helps a couple like Michelle and David. Michelle's
big gripe is that David is obsessed with his
computer, always ignoring her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, right, so.
MOOS: The expert then teaches Michelle dog training
techniques.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jono (ph) come.
CLAYTON: Forgive me, but you're boring. You have to
make it interesting for the dog, Jono. MOOS: The
most effective techniques were praise and treats.
Especially, tasty treats like shrimp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hmm.
CLAYTON: The more rewards David gets, the more he's
helping her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gentle kisses, mommy kisses.
Thank you.
MOOS (on-camera): What's an un-gentle kiss?
(voice-over): Elizabeth Getter is a New York
psychiatrist who thinks dog training your man...
DR. ELIZABETH GETTER, PSYCHIATRIST: Down, down,
down.
MOOS: ...isn't so far fetched.
GETTER: I mean, doesn't life really boil down to
positive and negative re-enforcement? I mean, you
can train a rat with rice crispies.
MOOS: And if you can train a dog to use a litter
box...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go potty.
MOOS: ...you ought to be able to train a man to put
down the seat.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Men have very basic needs. You
just keep them happy and then they'll do what you
ask.
MOOS: Hand-feed them grapes and you'll have them
eating out of your hand?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is good.
MOOS: Bring Your Husband to Heel follows in the paw
prints of a humor book entitled, "How to Make Your
Man Behave in 21 Days or Less Using the Secrets of
Professional Dog Trainers."
Secrets like, "if your dog is running away from you,
the worst thing you can do is chase after him. He'll
only run faster." David, by the way, didn't know
about the dog training angle. He thought he was part
of a project on relationships.
DAVID WELLS, "BRING YOUR HUSBAND TO HEEL": Michelle
has been a lot nicer.
MOOS: But the BBC got some 200 complaints about
sexism and had to apologize. The show is in reruns.
It's not known if it will be renewed. But the
relationship seemed renewed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a miracle.
MOOS: Our psychiatrist had another dog tip for
misbehaving men. GETTER: And not look at them.
That's practically unbearable for a dog, is to not
be looked at.
MOOS: At the end of the show they broke the news to
David.
CLAYTON: What nobody's told you is that I'm an
experienced dog trainer and Michelle's been using
dog training techniques to make you a good boy.
MOOS: Maybe you can't teach an old dog new tricks
but you can teach your old man dog tricks.
CLAYTON: So, you both get my vote for best in show.
Well-done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: Oh, he looks so thrilled with that concept.
Jeanne Moos reporting. Thanks so much for joining us
tonight, we'll be back same time, same place
tomorrow night. "Larry King Live" starts right now.